Making Conversations about education Count

{( speakerName('A') )}

What strikes me, I think, Kevin, is you are clearly a leader in your field with the University of Manchester, and you've been able to take some of what you've learned in the real world and take that through to, to students that are coming through. Now, that's a real skill in itself, because when you're dealing with young people and I know this, having gone through with one of my own children, they get to a certain age where they haven't kind of set their sights necessarily on what it is they're going to be, but they're working towards something, yet they still know everything. So how do you find the challenge of being able to communicate to a group about your topic of architecture, to actually engage with them so that they listen?

{( speakerName('B') )}

The concept is slightly different. As the head of school, I should actually say it's the Manchester School of Architecture, which is a joint school between Manchester Metropolitan University and the University of Manchester. But when you're the head of such a big Department, the kind of interactions with students is pretty limited, really. Probably easier to talk about leading staff rather than students. But having said that, when I do lectures around professional practise, I suppose what I try and say to students is there's no... not quite there's no right or wrong, but there isn't a particular path that you should follow. And I talk a lot and I've only learned this recently. I think, in a way, I talk a lot about not comparing have your career, have the career you want, try and be in control. And, of course, that's a very easy thing to say and a difficult thing to manage. But I think it goes back to this sense of being very self aware, having a vision, if that's not too strong a word, what am I trying to achieve here? And certainly that idea of vision and sort of taking responsibility, things that are sort of values I've tried to bring to my leadership. Yeah. Don't sort of look over your shoulder or look to the side and say, oh, yeah, but they're doing that. Certainly in my architecture business, there was a time when I was like, oh, we're 5-10 years old, the same as them. They've got 15 staff, we've only got five. What are we doing wrong? And then someone said to me, "how many of those people are running a school of architecture alongside a business"? And I went, well, yeah, none of them, obviously. And so they said, "yeah, why the comparison? It's not healthy". I suppose I try and get students to be in control of their own destiny or see themselves the qualities they have and try and forge your career from that, really, rather than thinking there's a template that they need to fit into.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes. It's an easy trap to fall into, isn't it, Kevin, that you can do it the same way as somebody else.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. Because comparisons tend to lead to disappointment. And, of course, that is one of the problems with suppose contemporary society, with Instagram culture. Young people do present the best of their lives and it can be easy for people to think that's the reality. Well, of course, it's a snippet. I was quite a big Facebook user. People often say to me, oh, you're always out, you're always travelling. But I don't post. When I'm sat on the sofa watching Netflix, you're seeing a disproportionate section of my life.

{( speakerName('A') )}

That'S the point, isn't it? I think that comes with some maturity. That intention and purpose has got to be at the forefront of what your goals and ambitions are got to align in some way so you can't compare with anybody else, because they're going to have different ambitions, too. You want to achieve different things. What got you into being head of school, when clearly you've got a thriving architectural practise yourself? What was it that drew you into getting involved in that side of the business?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Well, I mean, there are many points in my academic career when I said I've got no ambition to be a head of school, I, uh, would have said before that I don't want to be a programme leader, or course director. And I think that goes back to the point I'm just making. I've been very fortunate in my career and I think luck is important as well, but I've let things unfold. It wasn't a master plan, wasn't. Oh, I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do this because, again, maybe that's where you end up comparing reality to what you hoped. And then that can be disappointing as well. I got into teaching as a complete accident. They were paying. I think it was £6 an hour in the mid nineties. I think if you worked in a bar, it was £3.50. And the first morning I did it absolutely fell in love with it, very quickly, decided I wanted it to be a career. And then the rest is history really. Really enjoyed teaching, helping people the sense of satisfaction. I think that goes back to what we're talking about before. This idea of, who are you, what floats your boat, what gets you up in the morning and make most of that. Sometimes people say then they find out you're an architect. What famous buildings have you designed? Probably none, actually, but I've done buildings and projects that have helped people with their lives. But I've taken another route. I don't feel that because I haven't designed the famous tower block, that I'm not a proper architect again. It's that thing about finding your niche, really. One of the things I say to people all the time, because they say, you've got three jobs, you've got the bar, you've got a practise, you teach at the University and like, yeah, but I wake up every day and I just go and do what I do, don't go to work. And how privileged is that to do things that you absolutely love?

{( speakerName('A') )}

There's an old saying, and I don't know who said it may be Jim Rohn or somebody like that that says, do what you love and you never work a day in your life, isn't it? It's that sort of concept.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah, spot on. Yeah. Which I think goes then to that point to students trying to have your career, because you're far more likely to enjoy it. I mean, if you enjoy social housing and small domestic projects, that's not better or worse than designing big office buildings, each to their own really!

{( speakerName('A') )}

Doesn't that just fall into a different category of. Well, actually, you can feel a real sense of pride because of the contribution that you make.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. I mean, probably legacy is too strong a word, but I certainly know where I feel most reward is that sense of satisfaction when you see a student that was failing or was desperate to get a 2-1 and you help them achieve it, or they went on to get a great job. But I've got an ex student who unbelievably talented drawing, has left the profession, has now set up his own business as an artist, as an illustrator. It's really satisfying to see that he's gone on to do something that he's clearly passionate about. He works from home, he's got a young family, it's perfect for him. And it's not a failure that he didn't practise for long as an architect. He just found his calling. That's great, really. I'm still waiting for my calling to be a professional footballer, but I think it's a little bit too late for me (laughs).

{( speakerName('A') )}

Not one that I'm going to get called up for either. I don't think, Kevin, it fascinates me that we've got this next generation coming through. What would your observation be in? Has the teaching and the communication changed much? Certainly, with what we've just been through with Covid times, does that make any real dent?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I think higher education is incredibly professional these days, and people that aren't close to it don't realise that. And I think it's,very disheartening for academics when you read things in the papers about meaningless degrees and how tutors getting time off, I mean, people say to me, what do you do in the summer? I do my job. My job is full time, year round job. I don't all go off and sit on a beach for two months. And then those claims that online was somehow easier and cheaper and people worked unbelievably hard in the pandemic. But aside from that, it is very professional and it's big business. Universities are hundreds of millions of pounds worth of business and they have to be run properly. So I think you find that universities are teaching, the whole it's very professional. There's a lot of responsibility, there's a real onus on being student centric, really focusing on helping the students. In my day at architecture school, you could pass the first year, but they would throw you out. They'd say, Sorry, not good enough. We don't think you've got huge potential. There's a far more protective environment now for students to operate in and teaching isn't easy and academia can be very stressful. So I think you find the vast majority of people in academia are incredibly passionate about helping students and the next generation. I think it's an absolute privilege to shape the next generation, in our case, architects and landscape architects and urban designers. But wherever anybody teaches, and I would say the same goes for school teachers as well.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It was a bit like the Titanic needed to be moved quite quickly away from the iceberg. I've got a daughter that's in high school education. So see how those lesson plans changed and shifted and the communication was quickly adopted and changed and tested. And the feedback that everybody was able to give meant that no real time was lost. Like you say about headlines, you hear headlines saying, we're behind or we could have continued to save money. That's not really the main driver. It should be about the student and their future.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It's the student experience. Again, going back to those ideas of shaping your own career, I think this sense of choice, a willingness to sort of not have one size that fits all. In Manchester School of Architecture, for example, we have eight hotelier groups, so these are specialist studio groups that students vote to go into, and they can follow agendas which are aligned with what they're interested in. So we have a hotelier that's very much around sort of climate change. For example, we have one that's around computational design. There's one that has a feminist agenda. And so we use the phrase celebrating difference. We recognise all the students are different, have different backgrounds, you have different skills, abilities, different ambitions, and let's try and cater for them. If universities were some of the things that people accuse them of, we wouldn't give that level of choice, we wouldn't give that level of... it's almost to bespoke education as much as it can be, although in architecture, we do have professional body criteria that we need to teach. So it's that balance between the critical things that people need to know about making buildings safe. And you think about the Grenfell tragedy, for example, with that balance of trying to let people define their careers.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I would go as far as to say as well, that by showing all of those aspects, by having a little window into topics that probably are not of interest to the student, can open fresh doors to passions that they didn't know that they were going to have, they could be passionate about one particular thing and being quite struck that that's the path that they're going to follow. But actually, by saying, here's the wide world of architecture and all the different aspects that goes on in our world, there's that marvellous fascination of finding out and exploring new things.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah, no, absolutely. But again, so it sounds like a stuck record, but I think it goes back to that thing as well. To say, if you're interested in that, however you discover it, that's absolutely fine. One isn't better or worse. Most of my architecture career has been working with existing buildings. In my sandwich year, between my degree and Masters, I worked for medium sized Practise up in Carlisle and one of their big clients was a food processing factory. And one day I got asked to work on the design of a canteen. I remember that something like the flow wasn't particularly good. And I remember saying to the guy I was working for, if I could just block this wall up and make a new opening, a new entrance here, it will really unlock it. And I think from that moment on, I really love that sort of puzzle of working with an existing building, unlocking sort of potential. And certainly 20 years ago, that wasn't cool in architecture that was seen as the realm of perhaps an interior designer. And now the Architects Journal, which is one of the mainstay magazines, has retrofit awards. And of course, now with the sustainability agenda, working with existing buildings is incredibly important. I suppose I felt like a bit of a trailblazer is far too strong a word, but I felt I was operating in a slightly different area to what would be normal mainstream. And my business partner in the space Studios and interior designer as well. And I taught interior design. So I suppose I feel quite sort of satisfied now that it's mainstream architectural practise when 20 years ago it wasn't. But again, it goes back to that thing about what are you passionate about? Not comparing to my friend, who at the time was probably designing art galleries or something, 20 storey towers or whatever it was.

{( speakerName('A') )}

If anybody was wanting to come through into architecture as a sort of leading topic, what would your one key bit of advice be to them, Kevin?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I think it's just enthusiasm and passion. I mean, architecture is a very challenging education. It's five years at University, at least a couple of years in industry, and then at least another year of professional exams looking at eight, nine, even ten years to qualify. So that's not for the faint hearted. You need to be very committed to seeing that all the way through. Not that you have to see all the way through. I mean, many people will get a degree, which goes on to be an amazing education itself. I've got an ex student who is now an air traffic controller. He had a degree in architecture, had very good spatial awareness. He went into air traffic control, aviation. I think, first of all, being really passionate and committed to it is really important. And this is obviously a personal take for me, that sense of helping people. We design things that change the world, even if that's someone's house. Well, design and a nice house. Not a cheap one or one that. I don't mean cheap as in the market, but don't cut corners. Do the design process properly, have ambitions, regardless of the budget for it and so on. One of the nicest projects I ever did, and I think to this date, it's still my only testimonial on LinkedIn. But it was a single mum, two kids, and it was a lot of conversion that we did. And she moved up into the roof and had some Privacy and her daughter got her bedroom and her son got the other room. And she was in tears of joy when it was finished. I mean, she couldn't believe what we'd achieved in her budget and how it changed the life of the family. Yeah, it's an incredibly satisfying feeling.

{( speakerName('A') )}

That's the impact you can make. It doesn't have to be a 100 storey office block or shopping centre.

{( speakerName('B') )}

We do lots of social housing in our practise. And again, had feedback from residents that... wonderful place to live. They never imagined they could live in a house like this and so on. For me, architecture is about changing people's lives, but not for everybody. People see it in different ways, but if you are quite a generous person, sort of generous in spirit, wanting to help people. Architecture is an amazing professional career.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I hear that loud and clear, and I think the sentiment really can apply to just about any industry that you've got that passion for. Thank you.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Absolutely.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Kevin, it comes to the part in the show where I always say to guests, Bring along a conversation that counted for you. So are you ready?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I've got two, actually, but if it's only one you want, then I know which one was the most important one. Uh, so in the mid 90s, I was doing a master's and I was leading the student society at the Birmingham School of Architecture. And I ran the society and arranged an evening lecture by a couple, Sarah Chaplin, Eric Holden, actually, who were really influential to me. And actually, they were the people that said, don't just do what everybody else does. You can follow your own career. I organised this lecture and this is before the days of mobile phones, and they were late and they'd come up from Oxford and I didn't have any sense of how far away they were. And I had a room of probably 200 people. 150 people. I was panicking. I'm a very punctual person anyway, so I'm sure it was part of that. But I have this room of people and one of my tutors said to me, do you know why you feel like this and why you feel in the pressure? And he said, and I'll never forget it. He said, Responsibility, is what you assume. I'd organise a lecture, I'd assume the responsibility. I'd taken it on. And so I felt responsible for all of those people and for the time that they'd given to kind of come to the event. And fortunately, they turned up not long after and everything was fine. But I think that's something that. And of course, it works very subconsciously for a long time. But in the things that I lead, I like to give people responsibility. I think most people won't let you down. They can feel a sense of autonomy to sort of shine if you like, and you empower them. I think the extension of that is that I've become a really big believer in structures and organisational structures and also recruitment, that if you recruit the right people into the right structure and the structure is right, then you leave them to get on with it. And they assume that responsibility the majority of the time, they don't let you down. I think that, quote, responsibility is what you assume. In my previous job, I haven't said it so much here, but in my previous job, I used to say the phrase, "It's your dog, Charlie Brown". And it reminded me of Snoopy, where when Snoopy was naughty, all the other kids would go, Is your dog Charlie Brown? You sort him out, you make it all right. And I think it's that same principle. You're responsible for something, make it right. And that was, I would say that was about 1995, 19 96. I think it stood the test of time as well as. And I'm not even sure it was meant to kind of advice, really. I think it was more of an observation by a guy called Steve Ferrar. I think it was more of an observation by him, really stoked with me, but again, it probably didn't stick with me instantly. I think years later found its way to the front of my, uh, mind again. And I suppose maybe when people have said to me, well, why do you trust me? Why do you give me this responsibility? I suppose I probably tried to think about when I understood what responsibility was, and I think that was probably the point.

{( speakerName('A') )}

That word trust, isn't it? If you can underpin people with that value. The structure that you're talking about is the culture of wherever it is that you work in. And if you've got the right sort of culture, it can feel like family. And then you go back to what we were talking about earlier, which is if you're doing the thing that you love. It's never going to feel like work

{( speakerName('B') )}

As a leader... really trying to use that word rather than the manager. I think leading and management leadership and management are two almost entirely different things for me, but I think you can start to launch kind of vision if you like a way forward once you know what you're passionate about, you know what you believe in, once you know what the structure is. And then it becomes really easy to sort of make decisions moving forward because you say, well, that's the vision. That's the structure, the decision should kind of almost make themselves because they fit or they don't fit. Are they in line with what you're trying to do? I think, uh, what that also becomes really useful is when you talk about patience, things don't happen instantly, certainly in higher education.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Twenty year overnight success story you mean.

{( speakerName('B') )}

In my personal life and in the moment, I'm probably not a very patient person. Literally in the moment if I'm in a queue or I'm waiting at a bar or something... but in my professional career, I've been incredibly patient. I mean, my architecture practise is 21 years old, and it's probably only the last... almost post pandemic, actually, that has gone to another level and has become sort of particularly profitable, et cetera. And in education, I think when you have that vision and that structure, it almost encourages you to be patient because, you know, it can't all happen at the same time. So you sort of have a road map for where you want to get to, and it really helps you be patient because you say, okay, the next time I can appoint a new member of staff, they need to go in there, because that's the next most important thing to achieve the vision. Yeah, I think that combination of structure and vision and of course, one's very sort of soft in a way and one's very logistical, but that combination of those two, I, uh, think they're just the foundations for pretty much everything I've ever done, really. Yet with all those things, you have to start somewhere. In architecture education, I'll talk a lot about white paper problem. A student has to design the building, and they start with a white piece of paper, a blank piece of paper. And you'd often get students who are almost paralysed to design anything because they want it to be perfect straight away, and it can never be perfect straight away. Design is an iterative process. You have to go through tens, hundreds of iterations. And so I always say to students, start, just start. And the first thing you draw will probably be really horrible. But that's okay because without the first one, there isn't the second one and the third one and the 10th one and the 20th one and the final one. And that's the advice that I follow, my own advice. When I'm designing, uh, something, I just start. And sometimes you look at the first thing you've drawn and designed and you're like, oh, God, that really isn't very good. But then you learn the lesson from it. And I think it's the same again in leadership, when you're managing people, leading people... initiatives, if it's well intended. And again, it goes with the vision and all of that kind of thing. Just make a style, just try it. And, yeah, of course, it won't be perfect and accept it won't be perfect. But how do you improve it? And eventually you can refine it to a point where it works really well. But I think what's the real, uh, problem is when people won't try something because they know it won't be perfect and then you're paralysed and then you never move forward and you just don't improve things. So there's many times when something we're working on at the moment, something I've done before, which is a sort of nuanced assessment system to say, don't compare apples and pears. One person might design a really small building in lots of details. Someone might design a really big building that's really theoretical and not very much detail. You can't compare those and you shouldn't set them the same, really, because they have different ambitions, different agendas. So we're trying to work on a system that rewards what people have set out to do. It's something I did previously in my previous school. It's something that I tried to bring here as well. We didn't crack it in one go. We've kept continuing to improve it and hopefully soon it will be where it needs to be. But if you don't try, I think that's the problem.

{( speakerName('A') )}

And that's the nuance, isn't it? Being able to reward individuals because they are set differently to the next person and the next person that is tackling the same task. You've nailed it for me there, Kevin.

{( speakerName('B') )}

The proof is in the pudding, really, that having a bar, having an architect practise running, uh, the School of Architecture. But these are values and lessons that have been able to be applied across them. So it sort of proves that they're not just for architecture Practise, or they're not just for education, because they are really about dealing with people and how you get the best out of people and relationships with people. When someone, one of my staff said to me recently, how have you got all of this extra support? How have you been able to do this and this? So the simple relationships, if you have good relationships with people, you're far more likely to be able to achieve what you're trying to achieve. If you go around arguing with everybody and making enemies of people who's going to help you, why would they?

{( speakerName('A') )}

And likewise, even if you're trying to achieve a goal on your own, doesn't mean that you don't need the support of other people.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah, and mentors are really great and I don't think I've really formally had a mentor, but I had a psychometric test once for a job and some interesting things sort of came out of that. And I think sometimes as we've talked about today with that one conversation, sometimes you don't know where that really salient advice is going to come from where the Penny drops and so, yeah, I think talking to ranges of people architects were terrible that we sort of all know all the other architects. We don't always know people as much outside the profession. I love talking to people in other industries and disciplines. I was talking to a guy that runs a distillery here in Manchester the other day and we're just talking about dealing with staff and dealing with people.

{( speakerName('A') )}

People are people. That's what it all boils down to at the end of the day, doesn't it? If anybody wanted to carry on the conversation with you in terms of architectural or the leadership that you've spoken about today, what would be the best thing for them to do?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Well, I'd be happy to start conversations probably by LinkedIn. That's probably quite a good way. Yeah, my LinkedIn profile is pretty easy to find.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Thank you so much. We'll put the details on the show notes for people to be able to get in touch. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much, so much for joining us on the show.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Thanks for the invitation. It's been really interesting. Reflection, actually.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Oh, good.

{( speakerName('B') )}

I'm reflecting more now.