Figured out their ICP? Sales won't happen without the all-important, considered and researched client avatar nailed first!

Published by neal
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I have Paul and Shreya from Marketing Counts. Not to be confused with Making Conversations Count, but you can see why they caught my eye. So Paul and Shreya, it's lovely to be able to invite you on to the show and join us in your experience.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(18530) )}

Thank you so much for having us. This is fun.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(21044) )}

Yeah, we're very much looking forward to this. It's going to be great.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(23684) )}

I'm just excited because Paul got up super early because of the time zone difference and Mom Shreya, who's not his mum at all, has clearly made sure that he is up.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(36290) )}

I made sure that my son who just left for school, I made sure he was gone. I made sure Paul is up.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(44190) )}

Well it's just fantastic, isn't it that we can be all over the world and still get to meet up at different times. So introduce yourselves one at a time. I'm going to say ladies first because that's the British way. And tell us who you are and what you do.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(59304) )}

My name is Shreya Babergee, co owner of Marketing Accounts and Paul and I met about four years ago almost. So I don't really have a marketing background, I have more of an engineering background. Dabbled in marketing a little bit because it's a hobby of mine. It used to be a hobby of mine back in college, running paid ads, passive income was my 'to-go'. But then graduated college, had a corporate career over twelve years, very successful. My background is more lean and process based. I used to work for the aviation industry. Six years ago my son was born. So back then like everybody looking for work, life balance, I did the same thing even though I loved my job with him being in daycare, being sick all the time and just trying to figure out how everything works, I kind of went back to trying to find that passive income path where I could be in control of my time and that's why I came back in Internet marketing, did a few product launches and I met Paul four years ago where we decided to talk. His background of marketing is like solid, heavy, he knows his stuff and mine is more in process and growth expert. So when we combine our skills together, we created Marketing Counts where not only did we expand like super fast, we grow over the four years, but now we also help companies create teams and grow super fast scale pretty much.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(143844) )}

Well sure sounds fantastic that you've gone from side hustle to full time mompreneur really, which is pretty cool. And of course having a lean and prints kind of background, when you go into corporate companies you're going to have that understanding of how they're going to be ticking and the culture of that. So I can see why you and Paul kind of gravitated together. So Paul, what's your side of the story?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(169644) )}

Yeah, so I've been in business for over 23 years. I started as a teenager, running a dial up connection from my parents house. So that was how I started my business as a teenager in a small town. And from there and I started actually marketing apparel through email to different high school teachers and coaches and things like that, athletic directors. So I was selling shirts like this, custom screen printing, custom embroidery, those types of things. And so I learned email marketing. So that was kind of how I learned. And then it just kind of transitioned from one client to another. And there I was at 18 with my first clients. And then at that point, I tried for eight months to work in corporate and realised it was not for me at the age of 21. And then by that point I realised, okay, I'm just going to be full on entrepreneur. And I've been that way ever since. It just continued through the marketing journey. Launch my own courses, my own training products. Had a good run of success for that. And from there I went on to produce a feature film as well. So we've decided to kind of take my marketing skills outside of Internet marketing. And we had some success there, kind of transferring some of those skill sets. And then met Shreya, like she mentioned four years ago, and was kind of at the spot where I was like, all right, I'm a solopreneur, but I want to make this big. And that was when I found out she had that process background. That was the thing I was lacking. So it fit.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(260958) )}

Just discipline, if we're honest, isn't it, Shreya? Discipline.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(265510) )}

It's discipline.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(268750) )}

I'm only pulling your leg, but it is. It's when you can see, we play to our strengths. And that doesn't mean to say that you're weak in a particular area. It's just that if you can sort of... if you can max it, you're onto a winning formula, aren't you?

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(268750) )}

When you both came together, I know you do a lot of marketing stuff. So what do you do to help your clients with their marketing? Now?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(298568) )}

Yes, we have an agency called Marketing Counts. Success Counts is the overarching brand, but then we have Marketing Accounts, which is our company. It's our agency where we work with clients and we do a formula based service together called the FTE Formula. So she's really good with processes, and we kind of found that a lot of our clients are missing the boat when it comes to marketing. So I'm going to have her kind of talk through that FTE formula.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(322490) )}

I see it's pillars that you use, isn't it?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(323612) )}

Yeah. Three pillars. Yeah. And there's a certain order you have to do it in.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(328310) )}

Right? So the basic principles that we focus on is F is the foundation, T is the traffic, and E is engagement. Now, most of the time, everybody just goes after traffic. If I have traffic, I will make money, which is yes, but you might not make enough money.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(328310) )}

Sort of making money but by accident, right?

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(328310) )}

Right, yeah. If you have enough audience, you'll make something, you might make one sale and you'll be happy. But what we teach is having the foundation first mentality. It's work on having that digital presence, or even offline presence, whatever present, work on your foundation. Like you can't have a brick and mortar store, you can't have anything inside. It not selling anything. And open your doors and say your business is open. Right? That's having the traffic person mentality is saying, I just have a building, so I'm going to open the doors. People will come in and eventually buy something. I'll get a can of tomato soup or something, but that doesn't work. And if you relate to that and have in a digital world, that's exactly what you do when you say, I'm just going to start driving traffic, I'm going to start turning on ads, or I'm going to make posts on social media 20 times a week or a day or whatever the crazy schedule that come up. But if you don't have your foundation in place, like have a landing page, have a website, have somewhere to capture your audience's information, then you're not going to convert, you're not going to get the benefit that you're looking for. Then you're going to get frustrated and say, I tried marketing, it doesn't work. Which in fact marketing does, it works because you didn't focus on the conversion piece, you didn't focus on your foundation. So that's what we teach. It is training your mindset, almost, of how you think about your marketing and thinking foundation first rather than traffic first.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(428840) )}

It's funny how mindset comes into everything we do, doesn't it? Because there will be an experience that we've had and we go, I don't believe that that could work. So of course it's just never going to work because you're not looking at reframing that into or how does it work for other people then? Because it's not just by look, is it?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(449768) )}

No, it's such a great point. Yeah, because the mindset is probably half the battle. Too many people, even in marketing, they take their advertising campaigns, they shut them down too early, they take... discredit ideas. And sometimes you're not following the right process. It's not that marketing does not work. You're not following the right process. And a lot of times, too, it's by default, at least here, a lot of colleges, a lot of universities, they teach marketing. And unfortunately, they teach marketing to prepare you to go work for a large corporation. That means, hey, we're going to teach you marketing concepts that work when you have multi, multi million dollar advertising budgets, what about the mom and pops? What about the people that do not have that luxury? And that's where...

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(449768) )}

And twelve people on the team!

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(449768) )}

Yeah, exactly. Twelve people on the team. I mean, you don't have the luxury of unlimited resources. And that's why if you're going to market, you better start with the right things in place, like get your foundation set so it speaks to your audience and know who you're speaking to. Because when you're truly trying to market, if you're not speaking to your audience, your conversions are not going to be very good. And so those are things that you need to keep in mind.

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And you just quickly mentioned university.

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{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(537084) )}

And this is something that I'm really pleased that you two actually now go in and work with universities. Is that right? Because you're kind of trying to change that mindset from education to give them the right foundations from the off. So scale it back to one man band business, so to speak, and scale rather than the other way in.

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We work with several of our clients where kids come in or new hires come in. I would say right straight out of college, they don't know anything. Because first of all, if you just taught the tools, what you learn right now in this second will change the next second because things change so fast in digital marketing. So you kind of have to understand the concept piece behind it. If you understand the FDE model, then you could apply it over any tools, any traffic platform, it doesn't matter. So that's why we go to the high school level, to college level, university level, to say, teach it this way. So when they do come into the workforce, they're thinking this way. That was missing. When we work with our clients who are hiring, and we work with them, and it's a topic mentality that they have.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(609564) )}

It's re educating. And we saw it as a problem. We said we got to fix it. So we have curriculum in 140 high schools now, which is great because that allows impact the youth.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(620402) )}

Yeah, I mean, anybody listening, please get in touch with Paul and Shreya for your high school, university, college, because this is where I see impact.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(631650) )}

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You can kind of change the culture, change the mindset at a younger age, and then they're going to be taught the right strategies, the right ways to do it, because you just can't I don't even know what percent, but over 90% of businesses out there are small businesses. They're not large corporate conglomerates. And that's something that we need to change because people too often are taught to market like a large corporate conglomerate, and that's just 10%.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(663576) )}

And not even small businesses, even if it's a solopreneur or as an influencer, you would apply the same concepts. You won't apply what the big giants are using from marketing. Like ad dollar wise, you have to think foundation first, even if you're trying to build your own brand yourself.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(679356) )}

How do you see that shift between.... because big corporates tend to be forgive me if I'm speaking out of them, but they tend to be consumer led. They're aiming at a person, one person in a particular situation. I'm predominantly business to business, so I'm looking to attract somebody in a job for doing the job for somebody else. And I think that's about 67% in America, the last figures I saw last month. So that's a huge number of people still in the B to B world. I personally like the human to human approach that it really shouldn't matter. But I think when you're talking marketing and you're talking foundations, there's got to be some differential. What's your opinion on that?

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Again, we teach the basics, which kind of seems very not exciting to begin with.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(735672) )}

Not sexy, is it?

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(740230) )}

One of the key concepts we teach is creating your customer avatar. ICP. Unfortunately, if you're starting a small business, you don't do this because you think about everything else. But you don't start at the basic. You don't start at the letter A. Right. So creating your customer avatar, figuring out who that person is, we actually name it. You could have like 20 different personalities. For example, maybe you sell toilet paper. Toilet paper is for everybody. So how do you market to your key person? But there are different segments even within the toilet paper market. So some people might want the cheapest out there, some people might want the most comfiest out there. Well, those are two different customer profiles, and you're going to have to decide. We name it, name them Sally and Matt. And Matt wants the softest one and Sally wants the cheapest one. And then when you're speaking and designing marketing materials, you're specifically creating stuff for Matt that's going to speak to him. And even as an individual, I could do that. Even as a solopreneur or influencer, I could talk directly in one channel to Matt and then another channel on a different page, different landing page, different part of my website. I could talk to Sally at two different approaches. They're still getting the information.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(817738) )}

But it's going to resonate differently.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(819410) )}

Yeah. So you kind of basically sort of saying, well, depends on whether you're on Instagram or on LinkedIn, will be how you write that content for that. ICA right.

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Correct. Yeah. And it's also very important because when you're going for the right customer avatar, you're going to dig into their demographics. You're going to know, okay, what's their age generally? What is their interest? What are their likes? What other products like your product, do they purchase, digest, go through? What kind of podcast they listen to? What kind of books do they read, especially in the B to B space, those kind of people. What personal development experts do they follow. Then you can speak to them effectively. Really getting to know who that person is is very important. And if, generally speaking, you're not going to get a 100% right every single time. Right. But if you're generalising it, you're going to be a much more pinpointed messaging with your messaging than you would if you just kind of do what I like to call the spray and pray mentality. So you don't think. You just throw it out there to the universe and hope it sticks. And that's not the best approach with marketing. And that's how you can lose a lot of money.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(884228) )}

I would say as well, that you need to get that niche because you can sometimes have an idea that it's going to be somebody, let's say, Cherie. And actually, when you start to boil it down, it's not Cherie at all. So you could have gone completely off on the wrong track, spending all this time, effort and energy. And Cherie's like, why would you want to be talking to me?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(912896) )}

Right. Exactly. Yes. You nailed it there. Exactly. And then you just lost all your money and time and energy.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(923090) )}

Then you're not having the right conversation with the right person, are you?

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{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(927248) )}

So that was kind of what made me think of that. Typically, what sort of tasks are you doing for your clients right now?

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Yeah. So one of the core strengths we do right now is to really build marketing teams for them. So we come in and help them kind of assess. Okay. We start with their target market, so we always start from the top. Once we assess that, then we work with them to actually build a team, a marketing team for them. So we serve in a lot of our roles. We aren't just a traditional agency like as you mentioned, we do a lot of the education piece. So we really, truly believe in educating. So we educate them through the process on their marketing. And then one of the core things we do is build them a marketing team underneath them. So it's an outsource team or team internally, like working with their employees so they can get the most out of them, but put in place a graphics person, a social media person, an SEO person, to really build their marketing team so that they don't have to rely on an agency if they don't want to. So our goal is to work ourselves out of a job, which is very unique in the agency model.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(998316) )}

Like me.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(998940) )}

Do it to build them. Yeah.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1000308) )}

Yeah. I do the same over the years I've worked with clients, and I love nothing more than when they come to me and they say, I only need half a day of somebody on the phone, but I'd like to build that up and get somebody in part time. And I love nothing better than going, well, let me help you with the interviewing and the training and the handover so you know that it works. And if you're doing a good job, then actually that business is growing.

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{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1025436) )}

And it's your influence! It's great.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1028550) )}

It is. I love it. We have so many synergies. I like it. Synergies count. Absolutely.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1035060) )}

That's a new t shirt right there.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1040290) )}

I love it.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1043230) )}

It's not often I get a couple and I know you're not a couple because you're in different time zones, but you work together and you've been working together for four years, but it's not often that we get a couple that come with a conversation that counts to share and of course, I never know what that's going to be. So are you ready to tell us a bit more about that conversation that created a turning point for you?

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{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1182452) )}

We met at a live event. So Paul was speaking and networking. We are a big proponent of networking, creating relationships, going out, meeting people, even if you're meeting online, but meet! Like, create those relationships. We did a product launch together and since then the product launch went well and we continued and said, hey, let's start doing live events and we started doing success count live events. Then we started to decide to create Marketing Counts and that happened and the complete shift there was Paul was very, I'm a solopreneur, I'm going to do it myself. You're coming in, that's great. But if we want to grow because he was against growing for some reason, I don't know why.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1227790) )}

That was the team point of view, I wanted to always be known because I was known as a successful solopreneur. So there was my pride that was saying, oh, I want to be the solopreneur. I've accomplished a lot as a solo business person and I wanted to stay that way. Yeah.

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So we actually have both companies outside, individual companies outside of the success counts also. So he was like, you hire them under, you get the work done. I'm still going to be known as a solopreneur.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1259330) )}

How foolish I was, right, looking back, because it's like, without the teams, we wouldn't be where we are, we wouldn't have the time, freedom that we have again. And it's silly, because when I had my business solopreneur, I always did everything and built very successful business. I mean, it was very successful, top seller on many platforms and very well known internationally. But there was a ceiling. You reach a ceiling in your business where you can't go any further. And I was open to that, to knowing I needed to work with somebody that knew strategy and processes. But I would say this was unfortunately for Shreya, it was a very long conversation because I was a little bull headed.

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We're still working on it because there are times where he's doing stuff, I'm like, Why are you doing stuff? Why don't we have somebody doing this?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1308212) )}

It's more like the best part about the conversation we're constantly having is if I'm doing, she's like, Why are you doing that? And if you are doing, do you like to do that? Or couldn't we get a process? So I'm getting better at that, where there's quite a bit that we are outsourcing now.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1308212) )}

That's got to come down to Shreya proving that her way is better than your way.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1333130) )}

It's way better.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1334348) )}

And once you've got that proof, that actually gives you the confidence and trust to be able to lean into other things, doesn't it? And if you've just been the only person that's been in control of everything, right? I don't think it's ego so much. I think sometimes it's just it does come down to that trust piece. It's kind of like, well, I know I'm going to get it done and if I don't, then I can give myself a kick up the bum. I don't want to be giving anybody else a kick up the bum.

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{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1366208) )}

I think that's sometimes half of the battle, isn't it, is that none of us want those difficult conversations of going back and sort of challenging and saying, well, it didn't go how I wanted it.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1377968) )}

Oh, yeah, exactly. And I had those moments in my past where I tried some of the outsourcing model, it didn't work and really come down to it. It wasn't their fault, the person I brought in, it was my fault because I didn't have the proper communication with them to tell them exactly what I wanted. I didn't have the right conversation with those people. And so Shreya brings that process approach. If you have a process to the people you bring in, then they can actually do the job effectively. It's not about that outsourcing doesn't work. It's not about that a certain website you outsource on doesn't work. It does not matter. What truly counts is having the right process. So that conversation really matter, makes it.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1421852) )}

Also to be effective to you, you cannot hire ad hoc, like, okay, if your website is down, you need somebody, yes, go get that one person. But you have to have repeatable processes within your business to say, I'm going to hire somebody to do this particular task. So I'm not sitting there explaining to them every single time and wasting my time. I think that was a big hurdle for policy. It's much faster for me to do it rather than try to explain this to somebody else to do it. Well, if you do it 20 times a week, explain it to the one person one time, maybe twice, that person.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1454252) )}

Will take over me. That's exactly it's a trick that we all fall into, isn't it? To be successful, it's got to be on our terms, and that's it right. To be an entrepreneur, it's just about you. Well, do you know what? There are many influencers that started out as individuals that built teams and didn't necessarily employ anybody. Why is it we will go to an accountant for our taxes, we will go to a solicitor for advice on contracts? So why do we not trust other people in other types of industries, like marketing or sales and just about anything that you need? Because actually, that's your team. It's corporate. It's just pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1506118) )}

It definitely is. That's a really good explanation of it. It really is. And it all fits together really well, especially when you follow the process and do it right.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1520970) )}

Just because you hire somebody doesn't mean that that person would do it right. And that's okay. I mean, it's a fear we all have. But what you do is you move on to the next person. And that's why we are big into, like, rather than doing full time in the beginning, start with the contractor, and then if that person is good, then yes, eventually that person will become full time.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1539840) )}

But sure, you could be turning somebody's side hustle into something really magnificent.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1546470) )}

And it's okay to fail just because you started doing the process and you're good at it right now. You weren't good at it in the beginning. You've worked out all this all the time.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1554504) )}

Yes. When Brad Sugars came on the show, he said, people say to me, I'm no good at sales calls. People are just not interested in how many have you made? Four or five. Well, four or five sales calls isn't going to be the snapshot of success for the rest of your life in your business.

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{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1574490) )}

You're going to need to do about 2 million. Hello?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1576692) )}

Yeah, exactly.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1581550) )}

We always focus on your strengths and manage your weaknesses.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1589450) )}

So what would your one piece of advice be to anybody starting out that has got a side hustle, then now.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1597028) )}

It will be consistent. That's what we're talking about it. But even on the bad days, not every day is going to be nice. Even within a day, things are going to go up and down. Your emotions are going to go up and down and down. That's just life. And if you just do one thing, we were off for the last week, we were on spring break and we were working off and on. Even if you do one thing, something that we did three weeks ago comes in this week with a big deal that we're about to close. But that happened because we did that one task three weeks ago. And it could be saying hi to somebody. It could be as simple as just connecting with somebody or somebody new, somebody old, somebody. So just keep one step at a time. Just like when we learned a lot, right, as a baby, one step at a time. Just do one thing and don't feel bad about it. Don't be harm yourself that you didn't do anything. You did that one thing. Fantastic. It's going to snowball into something big.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1663976) )}

Yeah. Everything that I've built over all these years, right, is starting with communications and having a conversation and making those connections. So I'm constantly out there connecting with people on a deeper level. So Sherry, I talked about for somebody that's doing a side hustle right now the number one best thing you can do is go to live events in person events. If it's just a zoom event, at least that's better than nothing. You're going to make a connection, find a Facebook friend or a LinkedIn friend or follower and somebody that you can connect with, right? So those are immense, those relationships. You just never know where they're going to transpire, where they're going to lead. And we're talking it could take three, four years later. I was talking to a friend of mine that said one of the things he learned for me over all the years we've known each other is that you never know the value of a relationship because he had something that happened to him and four years later, now a connection he had four years ago that he's maintained and kind of just kept the door open, is opening up the door for a conversation that's going to drive his new business venture forward. And it was just because he was focusing on building relationships with people and that's what happens. You just never know. And the value of your network is insane. And right now our business is primarily just referrals and that's because we focus on building relationships and then they come to you. Yes, we bring in people through our marketing efforts and things, but we get a lot of our best paying customers just from connections and so go out. You cannot discount the value of having conversations with people. It's so important.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1767230) )}

I agree. I always say it's not what you know or who you know, it's what you know about those people. And of course, if you don't know and it's just taking those little intelligent pieces of information and being able to use them again in conversation later so that you can go, oh, I know somebody exactly that was looking for that.

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{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1791596) )}

And let me match you, let me put you together because I know that's going to have some synergy. That's the magic of getting to know people.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1799990) )}

It is. Yeah. It truly is. That's where the money is made.

{( speakerName('B') )} {( convertTime(1803548) )}

I was going to say also be patient because it takes time. Life is not a TikTok video.The relationship that you might make today will come into play four years from now. So it takes patience. Just give. Have that giving first mentality and just give it comes back.

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1827452) )}

Give value and truly get to know that person and then you'll see what happens. It's powerful.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1832782) )}

The rest takes care of itself, doesn't it?

{( speakerName('C') )} {( convertTime(1834892) )}

Yes, it does.

{( speakerName('A') )} {( convertTime(1837310) )}

Well, it's been absolutely lovely to get to know you a bit more what you're doing out there in the universe for marketing, certainly for our next generation. And if people want our listeners like to carry on the conversation, where's the best place to tap you up?

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Yeah, so they can find And that's going to be a great spot to get to know us. And then if they want to email us directly to have a conversation, it's just

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Very simple.

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We'll make sure all the details go on the show notes and of course, it's always on website. So thank you guys for sharing that conversation that's still happening. I'm going to check in with you in about six months time and see how you're getting on with that conversation.

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Okay, sounds great. That sounds good. Thank you.

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Thank you for your time today. Hello.