Making Conversations about better before bigger Count

{( speakerName('A') )}

So, Nick, just for the listeners, I should introduce you. You are a transformational coach and an author and you challenge on the idea idea of consider being better before they're bigger.

{( speakerName('B') )}

That's right.

{( speakerName('A') )}

So how did that concept evolve for you? Tell us the story behind that.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Well, the story's got two parts. The first part is my experience as a business owner, which was from about 23 to late 30s. So at about 16 years running two businesses. One was a health club and one was a preschool and nursery. And what I learnt was how not to run a business.

{( speakerName('A') )}

We all learn that quickly, don't we?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. And I had no business experience, had a degree in sport, so I was an expert at the rules of volleyball, which obviously made me ideal to run a health club. So I bought them on an impulse. And back when you could buy businesses on impulses and people would lend you lots of money. So I spent 16 years working in the business rather than on the business. I was really technically employed by the businesses. I just didn't realise at the time that's what I was they were physical businesses. Bricks and mortar, same locations, same journey each day, same but different routine each day. Get to the office at 8 o'clock, focus on someone else's problems, move onto the next one, move on to the next one, rinse and repeat. And I couldn't find a way out of them. And the businesses kept getting bigger. We had more members, we had more clients, we had more turnover, but they didn't get better. They got better maybe for others, but not for me.

{( speakerName('A') )}

So clearly there was something that was working well, to give you that growth. And there seems to be a common theme running through with guests at the moment. But that growth... everyone says "We all want growth!", but it can be growing pains. So what were the pains within the business that wasn't quite where you wanted it to be, then, Nick?

{( speakerName('B') )}

The pains were twofold. One was there was no second level, there was no future ambition. The business was to get the business to a certain level, but I didn't have a vision beyond that. So I was working in the businesses, but there wasn't an end point, there was no point I was thinking about selling them or expanding them, so it was very samey. The other impact was the fact that there was no development for me personally. So I was stuck in this operational manager role and I didn't develop my own thinking. I did an MBA to try and distract myself, I think, in reality, but couldn't really apply the stuff back to my size business. So I'd kind of limited my own growth and therefore I wasn't growing and therefore the businesses weren't growing.

{( speakerName('A') )}

So looking for the answer led you to realise that you were better suited being somewhere else than where you found yourself.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. And that wasn't by design, that was, on reflection, years later, I ended up having to close one business and sell the other business. The recession came and there was just not the margins in the business to continue them and they were both in the leisure kind of luxury sector. So as soon as a recession comes, that's the spend that's hit. So, fortunately for me, in hindsight, although it didn't feel fortunate at the time, I had to close one, I had to sell the other and that forced my hand and looking back, as we do, with the benefit of hindsight, that was the best thing that happened to me. It didn't feel like it and there were consequences, obviously, at the time of closing them and selling them, but it then got me the distance to be able to see what was actually in play and what was actually happening. Rather than having 60 people and 1500 customers relying on me, it was just me.

{( speakerName('A') )}

There's a responsibility of being a business owner isn't there.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It kind of creeps up on you. I don't think you realise until you haven't got it. It's like taking a rook sack off your back. Suddenly it's like, wow.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah. I was having a conversation a while ago with Rob Cressy and he said it's like having an anvil on your chest.

{( speakerName('B') )}

(Rob Cressy clip plays)

{( speakerName('A') )}

This is kind of where hearing what you were saying, that it was not by design, it's not in alignment then with where you should be and what you should be doing. Does the MBA then give you a broader perspective and that distance to be able to design what came next?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah, the MBA made me realise there was lots of different ways of doing this and there were better ways of doing it. So it gave me that insight into other businesses and what was happening in the outside wider world. A lot of this was pre internet and a lot of this was when you were very insular with your businesses. You couldn't just jump on a zoom and learn from others. That wasn't an option, there wasn't online training programmes. As a leader, you are really isolated. You didn't have the availability of resources you have today. So I left. Obviously I moved on from that and I started assisting friends and families with their businesses that morphed into coaching and I learnt that what I realised, what I loved was working on businesses rather than working in businesses and what I was actually quite good at was helping others with their mindset and working with them on how to address their challenges in a coaching capacity. So I kind of stumbled into coaching almost by default rather than by design. But once I got there, I realised that everything I had done previously had given me the experience and the knowledge to play that role for others. So the person I lacked when I ran my businesses was me. I needed someone to actually help me detach from the day to day. I needed someone to force me to sit with a blank piece of paper and write a strategy for next year. All of the stuff I didn't do, I now make sure my clients do.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It's fascinating, isn't it? How I could get a pound for every time I say this. How our own personal experiences influence the journey that we're going on. And I say all of the experiences that I've had in my personal life has led me to be doing the thing that I'm doing now and compounding those experiences together so that I can only imagine what that's going to be like in five years time. It's exciting. And certainly for you, being able to facilitate other business owners and help with that mindset and planning, because it's not just about what you think, is it? It's the actions that you take. Because we can all think ourselves being brilliant.

{( speakerName('B') )}

We certainly can. We're good at that, aren't we?

{( speakerName('A') )}

We trick ourselves.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah, we can do that. Visualisation.

{( speakerName('A') )}

What's the fundamental aspect for you that indicates that that person is ready?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I think, for me... And the ideal client is a lovely combination of frustrated-stroke-overwhelmed, but still ambitious-stroke-optimistic. So they are feeling the pressure of being the fulcrum of their business.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Stuck?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah but it's a nice trap. It's what I classify as the success trap, because they've got there because their business is successful and they're overwhelmed by the success. And what they've got in place in terms of people, processes and structure, were great when they were smaller, but they've outgrown them. But they haven't upgraded them. They'd be making do with something which is no longer fit for purpose, but because they're busy growing all the time, they haven't got the time to actually address them. They kind of know deep down that this is not right, but, hey, the phones ringing and there's someone else that loves me, there's another client, there's more money. They're constantly....

{( speakerName('A') )}

I don't want to take two steps back to go forward one.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yes, it's okay to make do. We put some sticky tape around it and it'll be okay for another five years. It's that mentality that they're in this delicious conundrum where they've got success, but they've got overwhelm and they're bouncing between the two. But the success keeps kind of it's like a drug, isn't it? It keeps them on a high, so they kind of cope with that.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And that, for me, is that place where I can add most value. And that's where this better before ideology fits. Because it's at that stage where I feel they need to introduce a plateau. So if you're climbing a mountain and you can't just continually climb for five days running. Your body and your mind can't cope with it. You can't acclimatise the new height. You've got to have base camps, you've got to have a secondary camp and you've got to have these stages where you just adjust.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Well, certainly Cathy O'Dowd would agree, because she is the first woman to have scaled Everest from both sides successfully, and that's physically climbing

{( speakerName('A') )}

(Clip of Cathy O'Dowd plays).

{( speakerName('A') )}

It is the same thing, isn't it? One big goal needs to be broken down into smaller, more achievable steps.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And this idea of having an off season, most professional athletes, most sports teams, will have a period when they're not competing and they're training and they're looking at their fitness, they're looking at their tactics. If it's a sports team, they're bringing new players in, so they're kind of regenerating the organisation before they go again. There's a continual process. I believe Andy Murray won Wimbeldon with the time he spent in Miami in January when he got super fit. The fact he won it in Wimbledon in July was...

{( speakerName('A') )}

Based on it all directly. Yes!

{( speakerName('B') )}

Precisely. And I think business owners can learn a lot from sport and look at that analogy. If you want to play at the top level, you've got to also give yourself periods to recover, regroup, rethink and all those lovely re prefixes that are really important. And right now as well, I think, Wendy, where business leaders have the most challenging two years ever, there's no doubt about it. This has been unprecedented in the level of challenge on a business owner. And to turn around in 2022 and turn around the troops and say, Right, guys, 25% growth, here we go. And everyone's like, Really? What?

{( speakerName('A') )}

Can I have a holiday?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Can I just gain my life back first? And I think it's now an ideal time for businesses to really think about, what does this next phase look like? Because the whole relationship has changed, doesn't it? Whether it's with employees, whether it's with customers, there's lots of movement happen over the last two years. So it's a case of really thinking about what's best for this next period. Let's not just carry on, regardless and go back to where we were. What does that look like?

{( speakerName('A') )}

You've already touched on this a bit, Nick, haven't you, by sort of saying that leadership.... When the recession hit 2007, I remember the first sort of push, because I've been in business 17 years... Oh, gosh! (Laughs) You were more isolated than ever before. And we're now more connected than ever before, yet can actually feel even more isolated. It's a paradox, isn't it, that we have but of course, in the beginning of Covid and people going, Oh, when can we get back to normal. We're never going to see that again. We've got to continually transform and evolve, haven't we? Go into and accept and embrace the change, what's coming. And yes. Our relationships with staff, employees, teams, customers, even, is going to change. So it's about for me anyway, it's about keeping people at the foremost of those relationships.

{( speakerName('B') )}

I agree. I think right now, all leaders need to be stakeholder focused. They need to be spending time and giving enough time for the depth of conversation with those different stakeholder groups. So whether that's employees, whether that's suppliers, whether that's contractors and customers, it's actually entering to a two way dialogue and saying right now, Wendy, right now, given everything's happened, how are you feeling? What do you need from us right now? What does this look like? What have we learned together? Because that's what we need to do is we need to reinvent the relationships at that next level up. Do we actually need to get together and meet or can we do all our business on zoom is a really relevant question for a lot of us right now, isn't it?

{( speakerName('A') )}

Well, yes, because you can go, well, it's really nice to meet up for a coffee and a slice of cake but that takes two hours out of my diary!

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yes.

{( speakerName('A') )}

And does nothing to the fitness regime that I keep telling myself would be nice if I stuck to it. So I get exactly what you're saying there is that I think we've all found that there's been an awful lot of time wasted in times gone by having a meeting to set another meeting, what that meeting is going to be about, and Mr. Smith couldn't be there, so we'll have another meeting so Mr. Jones can tell Mr. Smith what we were talking about before we decide what we're going to decide. It's a crazy world we live in, isn't it?

{( speakerName('B') )}

It can be. But I think right now there is so many opportunities that have been generated by the pandemic that we wouldn't have responded to without it, which sounds I don't want to make light of it, obviously, because it's been tragic for so many people, but I think there can be both of them play at the same time.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Been a level of acceleration, hasn't there?

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. One of my passions outside of work is I'm a school governor, I'm a head of a couple of governing bodies for some local schools. And the impact on education over the last two years has been, they say, ten years worth of progress. It's been brilliant for education because we now have lessons being taught across two or three schools with one teacher.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Better infrastructure.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. And better skill sets. If you're passionate about history I'm passionate about geography. Or you teach history to everyone. I'll teach geography to everybody. Let's use the skill sets we've got. So I think there's some amazing opportunities right now for leaders, but this is the time to really stand back and think about what they're trying to achieve and thinking about what they need to achieve that. And it's always been relevant, but I think right now it's more relevant than ever, because there's still uncertainty out there. There's still a lot of kind of known unknowns and that's where leadership comes into play. Leadership, when everything is going out according to plan, is a relatively easy thing to do.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes. It's uncertainty, isn't it? When you've got some certainty over what your vision is, because none of us have got crystal balls, there's certainly worldly influences going on that can't be ignored and that will have an impact on us all. We share a planet.

{( speakerName('B') )}

We do

{( speakerName('A') )}

So with the listeners as well. Nick, some are already in business, some are thinking about starting a business. What would your number one tip be for somebody who's thinking of starting out? They could be in a corporate role and think, actually, it's time for me to branch out and do it my way because I can do it better. Where would they start?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I think for me, they all start with something that they really are passionate about and something that they feel the world is missing, or there's a better version of it that like the guy that started Trunki, you know, seeing at an airport people lugging cases around and thinking, hang on a minute, there's got to be a better way to do this. That's a classic entrepreneurial situation where someone has that light bulb moment and I think you need to focus on a specific problem for a specific set of people. It always concerns me when I meet someone and say, well, who's your ideal market? Oh, everybody. And it's like, right, really? I've been there. I used to think, as a business coach, that I could coach anybody, whatever stage of business they're at, because I was a coach.

{( speakerName('A') )}

You wanted to be helpful. You just wanted to be helpful.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah, and you want to raise money? I can do all of that. And you kind of get to the stage where you realise that you could do it, but you can't do it that well. So trying to hone in on that kind of niche, which is what you obviously do so well, bring it right down to, I'm doing this for these people and it's going to make this difference. And I think that any first time entrepreneurs, you've got to be able to articulate, really succinctly those three things, the difference you're making, who you're making it to and why they're going to choose you.

{( speakerName('A') )}

And that almost takes us full circle, to, it's a bit like being intentional with the start of your day.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It is. And I think keeping that intention front and centre is just so important, because, as we both probably experience, you can get distracted by all the stuff.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes. And there is a lot of stuff.

{( speakerName('B') )}

There's as much stuff as you allow in, isn't there?

{( speakerName('A') )}

Definitely. The only thing that I'm allowed to distract me is the dog. If she needs to go out, we go out.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And in fairness to her, she probably doesn't realise you're running a business.

{( speakerName('A') )}

That's true.

{( speakerName('B') )}

That's fair enough.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Put your boots on, mom. Come on.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Come on, get out of there. This is a good distraction.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah. And it's having those sorts of distractions as well that can give you that little bit of distance that you need sometimes on a day to day basis as well.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yes. Isn't it amazing how we need to almost give ourselves permission to walk away from the screen or to walk away from the office? And I find I'm guilty as charged, but... the amount of owners that I talk to, all leaders, and I say, look, why don't you start your day a little bit later and spend more time with the family first and then go, I can't do that, people expect me in the office. And it's just like they're not judging you on that, they're judging you on your output, not your inputs. If you've got the right people, they didn't give a toss whether you're in the office first and last.

{( speakerName('A') )}

And of course, we've got these things, haven't we? We've got these. They are not just a phone anymore, you're portable office and we've been encouraged to have this portable office, so it's hard to unplug. So I have two tips and like you, I've got an office in the garden, so the commute is terrible when it's raining, but I love it because I come up into the office and that's where my work gets done. Okay, I might check on my phone a little bit, but usually I'm kind of going dead time. Let's see if there's anything rubbish. Yes, it's still rubbish and I fool myself in that instance. But one of the things that I did in this office was that I don't have a light fitting and that is because if it's dark, I shouldn't be in here.

{( speakerName('B') )}

You shouldn't be working?

{( speakerName('A') )}

No. It's as simple as that! And at 6 o'clock at night, if the dinner isn't on and cooking for the family, and it should be, the phone gets put upside down on charge on the side in the kitchen and I don't look at it again then generally until I go and make a cup of tea, about 8 o'clock or get a drink and I'll look at it once more before bed. So I actually spend my evening without my phone.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It's so important, though, isn't it, to establish those rules with yourself almost, isn't it? Those kind of good habits? Because the challenge for leaders now is they can work 24/7 if they want to. There's always an email that needs responding to, there's always an idea that needs progressing, but the quality just goes down. You can't maintain the quality if you're doing that many hours. And I think the quality is the essential ingredient that you can't replicate. So I think the first time leaders or experienced leaders makes no difference. I think that leading on your own terms, in your own way, is so important, but finding your own kind of way of working is really essential. And like you, if you can find that rhythm that works with family and the work and your personal needs, it's a really important discovery, isn't it?

{( speakerName('A') )}

It is. And it saves a lot of emotional bleed.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I can't think of another term to say, but if I've got my phone and my husband sees me with it, he's "You're still working?" "N I'm on Facebook!" "Well, what are you doing on there?" Because he doesn't do any of those things. "Well, nothing, really." "Well, what are you on there for, then?" Don't understand. Or if I'm doing that and my 13 year old sees me doing that, then she's going to just think that it's okay to have her head in her phone too.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It's the role modelling, isn't it, which is subconsciously done. I think leaders do this as well, because if they're emailing outside normal office hours, then their team think they need to respond and it's saying, this behaviour is normal and expected here. And without realising, they're sending such a bad message to their team and they're creating a culture that you've got to always be on.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah. So being better sometimes can just be if you're frustrated in the role that you're doing and you think that you can do a better job, it is likely because of the culture that is influencing you and what will make you make the change?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I think so. I think that there's a very western mentality between this work ethic that we've got to be doing long hours, got to do the hard yards, but we haven't. We've got to do the smart yards, not the hard yards. And that's what counts.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It is. And I think to just sort of sum that up, if we look back generationally through our family lines, I'm pretty sure that there are people that we knew that worked really hard and towed the line and did all of those things, but it still made no difference. They weren't millionaires or successful business owners.

{( speakerName('B') )}

So I agree with you. I don't think there's very many role models you can point to and say, well, that's who I'm trying to emulate.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah, no, absolutely. Everybody that comes on the show, I always say to them, have a think about one conversation that created a turning point for you, your pivotal moment.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Are you ready to share that with me now?

{( speakerName('B') )}

I am with some embarrassment, but I will share!

{( speakerName('B') )}

Ooh! Because I don't get to know this prerecord, so I'm hearing this live. Oh, right. I'm bracing myself.

{( speakerName('B') )}

About six years ago, I spent a couple of years working for a US based coaching company called EMyth. So I went and trained as an EMyth business coach. And EMyth used to provide clients with the coaches and we had a cohort of coaches that joined the same time as me and we had a coaching supervisor. So we were kind of in a semi competitive environment with each other because we were looking at who could generate the most work, all of those growth metrics. And I was very hooked. I like games, I like competing, and I was very hooked on volume and quantity. And then one day I got a call from the coaching supervisor who said, "Nick, I don't know how to break this to you, but you've been sacked by one of your clients and they've gone to a different coach." And I was like, what? Only spoke to him two days ago. And it transpires that he didn't feel I was paying attention, he didn't feel I was present enough in the relationship. And I realised that what I was doing at that stage. I had 18 clients on my books and I just had too many coaching calls, too many coaching conversations, and I was just dialling it in, I was just going through the motions. I wasn't present in the relationship because I put the volume and the quantity ahead of the quality, I'd sacrificed the quality of the work I did for first place on the scoreboard for that kind of vanity metric. And it made me realise that I have got one chance, one point with that relationship and I've got to be all in when I'm speaking with that person. I've got to turn up as a professional, I've got to prepare for my sessions, I've got to deliver with intensity and I've got to follow up, which sounds really basic, but once we get busy, it's often those basics that go out the window.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes, I understand.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And it took me that moment where I'd been sacked without realising, to suddenly have that wake up call that, "Hang on a minute, that's not who I am as a coach. That's not who I want to be". I then pivoted into creating my own coaching programme, which was very much focused on this target segment of clients. So rather than trying to offer average quality to a lot of people, I want to offer really high quality to the right segment of people. And that was my kind of pivot from that moment,

{( speakerName('A') )}

Which ties in really nicely with that better before bigger, doesn't it?

{( speakerName('B') )}

And that was, I think, the first germ of that, where the books are germ before you kind of write it. But I think that was kind of two years before I actually started putting stuff on paper. But it was probably the moment when I realised that doing it like that just wasn't going to cut it for me. I need something deeper. I need a deeper relationship with fewer people, rather than a shallow relationship with lots of people.

{( speakerName('A') )}

I think this is something where we can agree, actually, Nick, it's that accountability to our clients. My clients tend to... they've been to my wedding, we go for drinks, they become lifelong friends. They're not necessarily people that know my family, but they know of my family and I can talk and they can tell me about theirs as well. So it sort of becomes not just on the business surface of things that you're involved. I realised it personally when I did the mental health first aid of training years ago, that I thought, gosh, I'm taking on such a responsibility because I'm intrinsically linked to their business growth through the work that I do. And I realise that business is personal. I don't care what anybody says, you're working hard. It's effectively your money, even though the accountants will say it's in a limited company and it's not yours. I'm sorry, but it is, because if you didn't work for it, you wouldn't have it.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Quite agree.

{( speakerName('A') )}

You don't want to give it away unless you feel like you're getting something back for it. So going on the mental health training was a way for me to be able to help protect me, but do a better job of looking after my clients as well and their expectations and this sort of thing. And it opened up a much deeper level of relationship because my awareness translated to their awareness.

{( speakerName('B') )}

It's a two way relationship, isn't it? I get from my clients energy and inspiration and hopefully they hold me accountable in the same way I'm holding them accountable. And it's reciprocation, which makes both parties better, because we're both showing up to the relationship in a more intentional way. They're asking more of me and I'm asking better questions of them. And we're kind of like two people playing tennis together. You're raising the game simultaneously, you both end up playing at a higher level.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It's when you get to that point where you almost settle. You've settled for what you've got, that you go, well, hang on a minute. Is this actually where you want to be before you go into the next season?

{( speakerName('B') )}

And it's what I call the okay syndrome, where things aren't broken in a business, they're just okay, but they're not really inspiring anybody, they're just at that level where they're getting by and it's trying to, with ourselves included, do the work to get to that next level, whatever that looks like.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah. And I think going back to what you were saying about the last two years, I know, certainly I've been on a massive transformational journey, but I felt that that was the only thing I could do. It was that or quit. And I think there's a lot of people out there that will go, do you know what? I feel the same. I could just quit. But why throw it all away? It's the way it is. I accept that. That's how it's always been.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And it's sad because I think that people do get lost in their own businesses. People do kind of fail because they don't seek support from others. And I think there is so much available to help people in whatever areas they need it now. It's a brilliant time to run a business.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes. It's about recognising that there is something that needs to be better, and hence the show "Making Conversations Count". You don't know where the conversation is going to lead and it's who you have those conversations with that can seriously be the change that you need.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Yeah. And they say that you are influenced by the I can't remember the number. Is it the five or six people you spend most time with?

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yes.

{( speakerName('B') )}

And it's really important, isn't it, who we choose to spend time with? Like most people, I suppose. During the first six months of the first lockdown, I spent loads of time in network groups online and realised I was in totally the wrong room because I was getting nothing from the room. I was being de energised rather than ever. But also lots of negative people, lots of dumbasses that were just bringing me down. It was just kind of like and I'd end up coming off called exhausted. And I think all I've done is listen to people and I feel tired. And it's really important having it with conversations that we consciously choose who we spend time with.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Well, Nick, I think there's been some real value. Thank you so much for sharing what you do and how you help people. And of course, the better before bigger concept, and working on your business not in it. I think we can all bear that in mind on a daily basis. So if anyone wants to carry on the conversation with you, where's the best place for them to find you hanging out?

{( speakerName('B') )}

So there are two places where it's easiest to contact me. One is on my website, which is www.nickcramp.com. And the other is to find me on LinkedIn. And I'm always happy for a connection and a conversation on LinkedIn. That'll be great.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Yeah, just mention the show or just say, oh, I heard you talking to Wendy. And Nick'll know where you've come from.

{( speakerName('B') )}

That would be great.

{( speakerName('A') )}

It's been fantastic to talk to you, Nick. Thank you so much.

{( speakerName('B') )}

Likewise, Wendy. Thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure to be your guest.

{( speakerName('A') )}

Thank you.