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{( speakerName('A') )}
Joining me from his big top, I am so excited to have you here. I saw reference to Cirque Du Soleil. It was perhaps the first show that I ever went to that had me on such an emotional roller coaster that I was literally trying not to wet my pants because I was laughing so much to crying with such sadness and emotion. And I bought Cirque Du Soleil masks and they're in the house and people admire them still. And that must be 15-20 years ago.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah.
{( speakerName('A') )}
The magic that comes about from those shows is just awesome. So to know that you're associated with such a name.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah, I tell people, Wendy. I tell them I worked with a bunch of clowns. That's my opening line.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I can't say that I've been in such company of prestigious clowns, but certainly I can take the reference.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Oh, yeah, we worked with some clowns, and we'll talk about some of that, right?
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah. So you created the Spark program. So tell me a little bit more about how that came about.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Well, I came to Cirque du Soleil from the world of training and teaching. So when I came to Cirque, I immediately had my learning and development hat on. And I worked with numbers of executives before training corporate teams. When I went to Cirque du Soleil, I saw that they had things down pat, like collaboration, communication, trust, cross cultural communication. And I was like, wow, other corporations can learn this, but in such a unique way. So over the course of my six plus years at Cirque, what I did was we strapped executives into Cirque du Soleil apparatuses and we flew them across our training rooms, and our Studios. And it wasn't just fun and games, Wendy. It was actually to teach collaboration, communication, and trust and healthy risk taking in real time, because you could imagine we had like Google, Adobe, Microsoft, Mastercard. These executives had access to any type of training session. They wanted something different, and with Cirque, the teams at Cirque helped me to deliver that. And I just stood up with the microphone and said, "come on in".
{( speakerName('A') )}
So you were the Ring Master then?
{( speakerName('B') )}
Really I helped create the curriculum and the concept. We all work together. So I spearheaded the creation of the program. It was a lot of fun. It was just a lot of fun and very impactful.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Well, I can see why, because as a trainer myself, really through these Covid times, I've really suffered because that one on one, being in physical proximity, being able to be that interactive, but that's what we've kind of missed. And for me, when I've been to somebody else's training program because I'm interested in a different topic or learning a new skill, that's fine to sit and learn to an extent. But when you're really involved in something gosh, it goes in here and it goes in here, doesn't it goes in your head, it goes in your heart. And it's truly memorable. And I think using the circus sort of taps into that childlike learning that we forget as we grow up.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. What's interesting to me about learning is that we think learning is pencil and paper, but mostly everything we do in the world, we learn through experience, we learn to drive, we learn to fall in love. We learned to Cook, we learned to fall out of love, we learned to clean house. We learned it all through experience. So I've always approached learning, even now at "CoWorks Leadership Strategists", my organisation, I approach learning through an experiential basis because talking about something doesn't teach it. So you know a trainer. Right?
{( speakerName('A') )}
Well, this is it. You don't learn to drive in the classroom, do you? You have to actually get in the car and try not to hit anybody.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah, maybe.
{( speakerName('A') )}
But this is the thing, isn't it? Like we forget this and we live in a society, I think, where we're meant to be perfect. It's everything first time, everything's on tap to us. People say to me, I had the conversation with Brad Sugars. Oh, cold calling doesn't work. I can't phone people up because nobody wants to speak to me. Well, how many did you do? I rang about five people and you go, what do you expect?
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. Did you really try?
{( speakerName('A') )}
I'm getting on for close to like 2 million calls.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Wow.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I'm not going to have ever converted 2 million people to buy the stuff, but at least I've attempted it. It's the starting point. So when you're doing your leadership now, Jay, what sort of leadership are you doing without the tightropes?
{( speakerName('B') )}
I still have a good relationship with Circus Philly. Let's say I left four years ago to find CoWorks Leadership Strategies. And what we do is we enter organizations on the highest levels of leadership, really, so that we can make those changes. So what I do is I work with executives and usually the chief human resources officer or the highest person in HR, and we understand what the organization needs and then create training that delivers what they need. So we use a lot of data driven assessments, and then we use a lot of experiential learning stuff. And everything we do is original. So it's not like you're going to Google any of the activities that we have because I've created them all out of my frustration, just like you, that you have to learn through experience. So we've worked with places like the Empire State Building, some divisions of Procter and Gamble, some well known nonprofits like Point Foundation. I've worked with executives from Disney, fortunately, because I did the thing at Cirque, I have a calling card and people have called me. But what we really try to do is work with executives to understand what they need to transform personally and then understand what their teams need and then deliver not just my opinion, but scientifically validated approaches to help them make those changes. Yeah.
{( speakerName('A') )}
The key thing is that everybody is individual, right?
{( speakerName('B') )}
Everybody is. Yeah. So what I've seen is that a lot of those high powered executives, they really got to their position because they had a lot of drive and a lot of go get itness. And sometimes I have to tell them, hold on, dude, you got there because of that. But now you have a team of 5000 people. You don't need to do that anymore. Like you're already at the top. You don't need to call. And I understand why you felt like you need it, but you got to calm down. So that's really what I go in to do. I go in to calm those executives down, teach them those soft skills and be a sounding board, because you can imagine that if you're the person in the building whose name is on the building, you may not be getting that feedback from people because they're intimidated. So I can go in and say those tough things in ways that they can understand and hear.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah, sure. And I'm guessing, does these programs sort the wheat from the chaff? Because it's one thing going from being a doer of all these things to leading in all these things. You're going to have people that are going to be the leaders of tomorrow or potentially go on to do their own company or it's not a good fit. Do you find it sits in two camps or is there another camp?
{( speakerName('B') )}
Well, what I've seen is that for the executives who already kind of own the products or they're the sea level of the organisation now what they're working to do is to empower others and not do it all themselves. They got there because they had all the answers. So part of what I have to do and what I love to do is to say you got to empower your team. You've got to delegate some authority, not just tasks, and you have to sit back. We just talked about this, Wendy, you have to sit back and let people make mistakes. So that's what I'm telling them. And for the team members, I often train management teams, like you said, who want to become those powerful executives. What's really important is not the technical skill stuff. Anybody can learn the stuff on Google or how to use some specific program. It's really going to be the soft skills. And I know people it's really going to be are you emotionally intelligent enough to manage a distributed workforce now? Because now they're all around the country, around the world. Now. Do you have the emotional intelligence to do that? Virtually? That's not a technical skill. It's an emotional skill. How do you give feedback to somebody when they're not in person. So that's really what we're working on.
{( speakerName('A') )}
What's been the biggest shift then, with this remote working that you've seen in not just delivering, but supporting through the programs.
{( speakerName('B') )}
The biggest besides speaking into the black box of Zoom three times, you do this a lot, but this shift is really helping organisations build a culture when you don't see each other face to face. And I'm going to say this, and this is going to be unpopular, but I'm the dude who says the unpopular things. The technology is not the only answer. So it is really great that we have all of these platforms and resources. What we're missing is that 80% of communication that happens through body language. So, Wendy, as you look at me and I look at you, you're not seeing anything below my shoulders. So you don't know that I have on pajama pants.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I hope you put your slippers on!
{( speakerName('B') )}
(Laughs) But you missed that communication, that body language. So what I talked to executive leaders about is that when you're delivering difficult feedback or a challenging message or you're talking about a change, you can't see if somebody's twiddling their thumbs or cringing with their hands or if they have their body crossed from below the shoulders so on their face, they might be smiling and happy or they might have the camera turned off so you can't see anything, but you're missing all of that other communication. So that's been the goal for me is to help leaders think about how do you communicate these messages and what do you need to do when you can't get that other information.
{( speakerName('A') )}
That's really interesting, Jay, because for me, as a telemarketer, my left ear is highly tuned. So for me, having a telephone conversation with somebody, I can almost hear body language.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yes.
{( speakerName('A') )}
And I think that's what we're missing is if we could pretend that we were not on Zoom now and we were just having a telephone conversation, I would have to really concentrate because I've only got that one skill to be able to communicate with you.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yes.
{( speakerName('A') )}
So already if I just close my eyes and imagine everything shifts and we're not training enough people in this ability to be disabled.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yes. Listen, what's been really interesting about communication is that it's mostly about listening.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yes.
{( speakerName('B') )}
One thing, and this is a tip that I've given to leaders and anyone who's listening can take it is are you listening for the pause to insert your message or are you listening to the message that you should be receiving? And a lot of times, mostly, we're listening to the pause to say our thing. If you just one quick skill is if you were to come with notes and a sheet of paper and your job is to really understand only what they're saying and reflect back to them, you will see that communication goes much better. You're right, Wendy. Listening is a skill that leaders have to learn now. Listening is the biggest part of communication.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah. And in lots of respects, it's not what is being said, but how it is being said. That inflection and tone. If you really know your team, you'll hear if there's something else going on, because there's a sort of disconnect, there's a disengage in their voice because you can tell that they're off daydreaming or looking out the window. They're not really listening to you. We've lost so many of these soft skills by not using one tool, which is the telephone. That's my view. So it's great that you still champion the listening techniques.
{( speakerName('B') )}
It's necessary. And sometimes we hide the ball. I've had so many in these coaching and training sessions, leaders will say, well, I feel like they're not telling me everything. Great. So you can tell them, what are you not telling me? What are some things that you're not saying to me? But we don't know that we can ask that because we haven't been in this world where the verbal communication has been much more important because we're losing all of the in person feedback we get. So you have to know how to use those words. And you're right, Wendy. It's also about the inflection a leader can say, what else are you not telling me? Because they're frustrated or they can say, oh, what else are you not telling me?
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah.
{( speakerName('B') )}
And it's a very different message.
{( speakerName('A') )}
And if you really listen hard, you'll know, whether you've been told at all tale. When you know them really well. I did a post about this. My daughter told me a lie, and so I turned it into a social media post. Don't ever tell a lie because you'll be caught out and a lie will catch up with you in months and months ago, I said, Where's your lunch box? I don't know. Well, you took it to school. You brought it back from school. Yes. So where is it then? I don't know. I found it in her bedroom months later. There's a science experiment happening in that lunchbox. But the point of it was because I can hear that she didn't want to tell me something. She didn't want me to hear the truth. She kind of skirted around it. I could tell. I just couldn't prove it.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah.
{( speakerName('A') )}
And I think this is another thing that when we trust what we're hearing of our own instincts, we can make better decisions as well, can't we, in how to handle things.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. And what's really important about... I love that word trust, because it's important. I work with a lot of leaders and organizations. It's important for us all in this brave new world of how we're communicating and living, even though things are, quote, unquote, going back to normal, they've changed in a lot of senses. So, yeah, that idea of trust and the way we're going to communicate is really important. And when you're in positions of power, like a parent over a child or an executive over another employee. Because the person you're in power over, they recognise the power. Sometimes they feel like they need to lie to you to protect themselves. Lying is not necessarily morally wrong. It's a protection mechanism. It's like if I say the truth, I feel like I'm going to get in trouble if I tell Mommy that I'm having a science experiment in my lunchbox. So that's why even as leaders are a part of what's going to happen with your team is that they're probably not going to tell you the truth sometimes because you're afraid of the power that might come down on them. So that's just a part of it, too. I've told a few lies in my life, maybe five or six.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I'm just going to test you on what those five or six are. Five. Or was it six, Jay?
{( speakerName('B') )}
It was like seven.
{( speakerName('A') )}
(Laughs) But it is interesting. And I think what you're touching on, really body language, communication, it's about that connectivity, isn't it, with people. For me, conversation is kind of everything that I do. Everything boils down to that. But you've got to be a clear communicator to do well in helping and supporting people.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. That's been something I've had to learn over the course of my 15 plus years. I don't want to date myself, but I have 15 plus years, working with leaders is how to communicate clearly. Because I came from a really academic background, I would talk in these long sentences. And because I started to work with global teams, sometimes English was their third language and those long sentences lost them. It's not that they didn't understand me. They spoke many languages. I was just not talking right. So what I did was I started to read children's books. Surprisingly, I bought a lot of children's readers. And because those books communicate messages about morality, those really abstract concepts to seven year olds in a way that they understand, it helped me to clarify my communication. Like get to the point. What are you trying to say? Why are you trying to say it? What are the simplest words? You don't have to go to the Thesarus and get all extra Harvard, Yale, or wherever school people go to. But what is the clearest way to say it?
{( speakerName('A') )}
It's true, isn't it? A lot of marketers will say if you can get your point across so that a seven year old understands it. You've nailed it. And nobody wants a Thesaurus for breakfast.
{( speakerName('B') )}
No. Maybe for lunch. Not for breakfast.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Bedtime reading, maybe. What would your top tip be for those starting out in terms of communication and leading themselves?
{( speakerName('B') )}
The top tip today's top tip, because it's going to change. I'll be on another podcast and I'll say something different today. In my heart, the top tip is authenticity. It's something that I've had to learn early in my career. I did things because I needed a job or I wanted this amount of money or I wanted the prestige of a certain set of things, and that was different from being my authentic self. So early on, especially when you're younger, the world forgives you for a lot of stuff. Like, if you're in your 20s, you can be sleeping on a couch or, like, hopping from job to job and you have a lot of leeway because you're 20 something and not 40 something like me. I think everyone has a lot of leeway, but when you're younger, it's easier to take those chances. So for younger listeners, be your authentic self. Think about what you really want to do and go do that. Don't worry about money, because one, it's just printed paper or now it's just even a number on the screen, so it's not even paper anymore. And two, when you're living authentically, all of the other resources will come. So decide what you want to do, what you care about, and do that.
{( speakerName('A') )}
That's really good advice. And authenticity is kind of a buzzword that everybody uses, but it's not always used in the right context. And I think you've just nailed it. It's okay to be you and to be a little bit different.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. And we've been told that certain types of people are certain ways of being are not appropriate. Like, we're giving these two separate messages, like, you should not chase money, but being rich is great.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Why do they have all those resources? So it's just really important for you to clear the clutter. And the easiest thing to do is to be yourself, because then you just are yourself wherever you go. I feel like I just learned that, like, four minutes ago, be yourself. And then for young people, I would also say, you know, when a situation is not right for you, like, whether it's a relationship or work or a meal, you order that you don't like the taste of, you know, what's not right for you? You're not beheld to stay at a job. I've informally coached friends who've been in work situations, and they're like, you don't like it, you don't like the work situation, get another one. You don't have to stay there. Well, I just got the job, and you don't like it. Go to where you like, someone else is going to like that job. When you leave, someone else will come in and they'll like it. And then you go somewhere where you like so young people know what you want, know what you don't want, and just go for it. Go for it.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah. The judgment of other people is what's going to hold you back. And ultimately, that judgment that's coming from other people is probably not even happening because people don't care.
{( speakerName('B') )}
What's the quote it's like "you would care less about what people think about you when you realize how seldom they do."
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yeah, of course. Everybody's worrying about what you're doing today, Jay, and whether you like it or not. And are you good at it? How many million people on the planet are all worrying about that right now? Nobody ever.
{( speakerName('B') )}
No one is. I remember I used to say, I'm going to show them. I'm going to show them. And then I realised they're not looking.
{( speakerName('A') )}
No, it's only you looking, isn't it? That's the thing. So a good friend and mentor said, look in the mirror. The eyes that you look out are what you have always looked out at. Things might change around you, but who you are at the core of you has always looked out at those eyes. So think back to a time when you remember it being great. Think of a situation that you really enjoyed, and it will find you again.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yes. Wow.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Deep. Getting deep. Jay, come on, get the clowns back out.
{( speakerName('B') )}
It's exactly what I've been practicing, and it's just my life's practice is what I tell leaders. It's like even when there is a problem in the midst of something that feels like chaos, if you literally look around you, everything is going well. If you literally look around you, you're in traffic. Mostly people aren't bumping into each other with their cars. The sun is shining or the clouds are raining, or all of the structures that we've built are standing. Mostly everything is going well. So it's not a myth. Positivity and optimism is not a myth. It's just I remember I was talking to a leader of an organisation. He was feeling stressed. And someone brought him a cup of water. And I said, do you know how much had to go well for that water to get to you? Like the glass had to be clean. It didn't break. The person was trustworthy. When people bring us food, they didn't poison you. You just don't even think about that. The tap water had to be clean. Like these people had to come to work. A million things had to go well just for you to get that water. So everything is going well, Wendy. Like you said, we are getting deep. So maybe we should take it down a notch, everyone. That's the message of the day on Wendy's podcast, authenticity.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I like it. That's the best place to start, isn't it? Best place to start. So thank you for sharing a little bit about what you do and how you help people. Jay, I really love where you come from with your work.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I ask everybody that comes on the show to think of a conversation that counted for them. So if you like one that they can go if that hadn't happened, no change would have occurred. Can you think of something that you can share with us now?
{( speakerName('B') )}
The one that comes to mind was a conversation where I was in an organisation working with the President of an organisation. And I walked into a meeting, and in this meeting, he was to turn over leaders that I would be leading for a client activation that they paid a significant amount of money for. So I walked into the meeting with these leaders I never met before. And Wendy, I would say not two minutes into the conversation, he started to curse me out. He just started to yell at the top of his lungs, and he just dropped F bomb after F bomb after F bomb. And at this moment, I am a trained mediator. I have seen these situations before. So I started to go into mediation mode. And I'm like, Mr. President, I see that you're angry. Mr. President, how can we work this out? Mr. President? And he just said, get the blank out of his office. And I left. And I would like to say that I left and I got some tea, and I gathered myself, but I cried for a couple of hours. And what was interesting about this was I had all the tools, like I had been Ivy League trained to deal with this type of stuff. I worked with Fortune 500 leaders, and this guy was not a Fortune 500 leader. So I've been trained to deal with this. And yet I was paralyzed emotionally, fortunately, because I did have the skills, I went back the next day and I said, let's review our conversation. Help me to understand why you felt like it was okay for you to speak to me that way. What was going on? And he gave me some information. I understood that there was some stuff happening in the business and with him that was stressful. And he walked in that day in that meeting with that stuff. And then after he said all of that, I said all of that I understand, in terms of the way we're going to communicate. This is what I expect. These things cannot occur not only because they hurt me. They did hurt my feelings when I cried, but also they're going to impact our activation for the client and your team in this way. When did that conversation open up for me? It helped me to see that, well, Wendy, this is going to be counterintuitive, but it helped me to see that even leaders at the highest level didn't have the skills they needed. So it opened up empathy for me, surprisingly, because I realised.. I was like that guy after I cried, right after he cursed me, after I cried for a few hours, I thought I was like, that guy didn't just wake up, receive a million dollar check from Bill and Melinda Gates, kiss his spouse goodbye, get in his Ferrari, and then decide to curse me out. I was like, something's not going well. And when I uncovered what wasn't going well, it made it all the more clear to me that we all need this help in communicating better and managing our emotions. So it was a conversation that really was painful, and it was a conversation that helped me to understand that we need some help in learning to communicate. And we all need to exercise more empathy, and we all need to learn some emotional control.
{( speakerName('A') )}
I can totally, totally get on board with what you're saying there that I was working for a guy who I would prepare minutes after meetings, and I would type them all up to go on file for letters to go out many years ago. And it was kind of one of those jobs. I needed the job. I had bills to pay. This was a long time ago, and I was doing it around building my business. So we're going back 17 years. And he would read about the minutes and say, that's not what I said. And he would shout at me, and I'm like, my notes, don't lie. And it say, well, I said this and this it and was completely different. And it got to the point after couple of weeks of being barked at, I can't stand this. And there's a couple of things really that came from it was one, I didn't know that his wife wanted to leave him.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Exactly.
{( speakerName('A') )}
We can't see what's going on in people's lives. We can only see what's going on now in front of us. And the other point was that because he was a multimillionaire and everybody called him Mr. Not by his first name. Mr. Everyone was scared of him so he could act exactly how he wanted to. He'd created this persona. And I went in one day and went, I can't continue to work here if this is what you're going to doubt me, if you're going to make me so upset that I don't want to come when all I want to do is help you. And all he was looking for was for me to stand up to him. He was always looking for somebody to stand up to him. And as soon as I did, I was allowed to call him by his first name.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yes, that's it, Wendy message! Another message. Authenticity, self advocation advocate for yourself.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yes. You shouldn't need to accept somebody else's baggage, especially when you don't understand what it is that you're taking on, because that can be really hurtful for you personally. And judgment. I think. We can be too quick to judge based on other things that have happened for us that are going to be completely off the Mark with what's happening with other people. So it's about reserving that judgment until you have the facts.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. I think the self advocacy part, like speaking up for yourself. I feel like, first of all, that's really important because only you know what you need from other people and they can't know that. So the self advocacy is so important because oftentimes someone's literally treating you the way that they want to be treated or the way that they think they need to treat you in order to get the results they want. But I think the other part also is that storytelling, like when someone yells at you or does something that feels like it's wrong to you or others, it's easy to make up a story. And the short cut story, Wendy, is often they're a bad person. They are a bully. When really there's motivation behind that behavior. There's always motivation behind the behavior. It's difficult to have empathy when you're the victim. The empathy will help you resolve it, though.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Yes. How many leaders do you suspect that you have to kind of reset the bar by saying your team are not mind readers?
{( speakerName('B') )}
I don't want to say! (Laughs) The numbers are going to be astounding, but I would say everyone needs to understand that their team cannot read their mind or the people can't read their mind. I think it's especially important for high profile leaders is because those other people can be hundreds or thousands. And your decision determines how much they get paid or if they can take vacation or if they further their careers or get promoted in some way. So for those leaders, I say it to almost every one of them, even if it's not the most immediate thing or needed. I say it because what you decide, Mr. Ceo, determines the future of 100 or thousands of people. So I say it to everyone. Yeah. That's all I'll say. I won't give a number.
{( speakerName('A') )}
But I would guesstimate that we all do it.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yes.
{( speakerName('A') )}
No matter whether we've got the training and the natural skill sets, even. I do it. I do it with my husband. I do it with my daughter because I expect them to know better.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah. I hear this all the time. And when I'm talking to team members who have to manage up to their executives, they would say at her level she should know this. At her level, she should know this or even the executive to the team leaders, they would say at their level they should know this. And I tell them should is an argument against reality. If they're behaving in ways that are not optimal for you, then you must tell them because obviously they don't know. Everyone wants to do their job well. Everyone wants to be liked. Everyone wants to do the morally right thing. Very few people go out and say I want to be bad at this or I want to make my boss upset, I want to make my parents upset. So when you say they should know, should it an argument against reality, they don't know and they only need to be told yeah.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Or reminded because we're busy, we're humans, we're habitual creatures and we'll concentrate on what's important right now rather than maybe what we've learned before. I certainly know that things that I learned 30 years ago I've been reminded of and forgotten that I do. It's not until I've repeated that habit and gone, oh, I used to do that 30 years ago.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah.
{( speakerName('A') )}
And it happens, doesn't it? Because things evolve and come around full circle so it just never ceases to amaze me how the depths and breadth of conversation and interacting causes complication and such joy.
{( speakerName('B') )}
Yeah, I love it.
{( speakerName('A') )}
Well, Jay, thank you so much for sharing your story, your journey, your pivotal conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure to get to know you. If the listeners want to reach out and carry on the conversation, where is the best place for them to find you?
{( speakerName('B') )}
They can find me at jayguilford speaks. That's the website, or reach me via email at contact@coworkslead.com and that's at coworkslead.com.
{( speakerName('A') )}
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Jay.
{( speakerName('B') )}
All right. Thank you, Wendy. Have a great day.